A couple days ago, I read a remarkable post on this topic by Paul, which he calls, “Men of an Uncertain Age.” It’s not so much a description of his experience as a kinky adolescent and young adult prior to the widespread availability of the internet as it is a reflection of the impact of that experience on the way he and other men of our generation– his and mine– live out their kinky lives even now.
He explained in his post that he had limited his discussion to men both because he had no experience as a woman and because he thought the experiences of a woman coming into the kinky world in middle age are rather different than those of a man. I agree with him on this point, generally speaking. Perhaps that’s why I was so powerfully struck by how very well he captured feelings and experiences with which I have also struggled, but had not yet articulated clearly for myself. For example, this is how Paul described his cohort:
The men I’m talking about are those whose traditional period of sexual and emotional development — basically, puberty and adolescence – occurred before the popularisation of the Internet, but who then landed in a post-popular-Internet world in young adulthood or middle age with desires and skills that suddenly had a place and a value, but without the hardening and emotional maturity of years of relationship beginnings and endings when those would normally have occurred.
Oh, yes, that description sounds familiar. Obviously, I have to mentally change the gender in the above paragraph, and I’m also not sure I’d keep the word “skill,” unless it could be interpreted to include being a reasonably witty smart aleck. In this way, the experiences of a male top are indeed very different from those of a female bottom, even if both self-identify fundamentally as switches. Women, even women like me who are by no means traditional, are socialized to be acted upon, whereas men are socialized to act. This dynamic is accentuated in M/F spanking play, in which the top is, at least at first glance, the actor, the bottom acted upon. Still, I had a similarly heady feeling in those early days of real-life play, realizing that my desires not only had a value, as Paul put it, but were my key to enter a whole new world. In my twenties, I’d wondered idly if I’d ever be able to confide my spanking desires to anyone, even a sexual a partner. Now, two decades later, my desires were no longer a source of embarrassment and isolation; rather, they were now an entree to a new and exciting community. Just by walking in the room, I’d shared perhaps my deepest secret with everyone in the group, and I’d been warmly accepted not in spite of it, but because of it.
The second part of that paragraph is also true of me: I reached middle age with remarkably little experience with relationships, none of them particularly long-lasting, with the exception of one that I knew was a mistake early on and failed to end in a timely manner. I was now in my 40s, an experienced professional, a loyal and caring friend, someone who was very good at reading people and communicating with them. But I also had the sexual maturity of a 20-year-old, and I found that situation frustrating and a little humiliating.
In this way, the spanking scene was a godsend. There was nothing at all abnormal about a woman coming out as a spanko at my age. This was my chance to gain experience with the lighthearted flirting, banter, and play that accompany the spanking scene, without having to face most of my insecurities about sexual relationships. I gained a great deal of confidence from my first year in the scene; I’d found plenty of people I enjoyed playing with, and I’d become much less conscious about my body. So it was probably time to take that next step, to find someone who would be more than just a spanking partner for me.
Now, two and a half years later, I still haven’t taken that step. In part, that’s because vanilla tragedy took over my life for quite some time and I didn’t have the energy to build something new. But I have to admit that’s not the only reason. In this way, too, I have much in common with the kinky men Paul describes:
Many kinky men whose sexual and emotional development was pre-Internet, but whose expression of kink is post-Internet, missed the learning curve that ought to have come with normal relationship patterns, but they also missed something else:affirmation of their desirability.
I think that’s equally true of women in the same situation. I’ve long been conscious of the way in which my kink made me confused about my sexuality. However, I’ve attributed that confusion as stemming primarily from having a sexual desire for something that I had also associated with parental disapproval. There’s probably some truth to that, but I suspect that Paul has the right of it. It was more that I hadn’t found– or at least allowed full expression of– the very core of my sexuality. I didn’t have enough desire for vanilla relationships to overcome the typical insecurities most young people experience.
I didn’t understand that, though. I just thought I was unattractive for a whole host of other reasons. Don’t get me wrong– I wasn’t off in a corner feeling sorry for myself or feeling worthless. I was even sure I’d be a good life partner; I just had serious concerns about being good enough at the game of finding one– especially a man– to prove it. Those insecurities weren’t all about kink, but they were certainly exacerbated by it.
Paul goes on to talk about how the need for affirmation of desirability has affected him and other men of his generation. I was quite intrigued by that discussion, but I think there is a big gender difference in the way that need is expressed in our kinky communities. Entering the kinky world as a middle-aged woman is definitely much different from doing so as a middle-aged man. Especially for M/F relationships, where male experience and age are valued, while female youth and inexperience are much more attractive. In some ways, I’m glad I didn’t enter this world until I was fully grown up, with a middle-aged woman’s awareness that I shouldn’t listen so much to societal expectations. I think it would have been hard for me to combine my professional development in a male-dominated field with an exploration of M/F kink. I also worry about the potential for older men to manipulate naive young women– and I was naive!– in the scene. At this stage, I’d never put up with a Sir Domly Dom’s assertions that if I didn’t do exactly what he wanted, I wasn’t a good enough submissive. Maybe I never would have; I can’t say for sure. But now, Sir Domly Doms know that at a single glance and steer well clear.
Still, I think that lack of affirmation of my desirability did shape my entry into the scene and continues to have an impact on my decisions even now. I chose to attend parties as a way of seeking spanking play for two reasons. The first was safety, and, frankly, that’s a good enough reason. But I also didn’t want to intertwine my exploration of my spanking desires with something at which I’d never been particularly successful: dating. So instead of internet dating, I went to spanking parties, where I was relieved that sex is very much not the default activity following spanking. I also settled into a play relationship with a man whose marriage was open for spanking play, but not for sex.
I think that was a good strategy for me. I learned a lot about the spanking scene and my own desires, especially from Nick and Linda. Even more important, I felt attractive for the first time in my life. Sure, I’d bought a skirt or two and a few reasonably nice pairs of knickers, but I wasn’t at my skinniest, nor had I suddenly learned how to apply make-up, walk in high heels, or dress with flair. But there were men who told me I had a beautiful bottom, and they really seemed to mean it. I couldn’t see it myself, but it was exhilarating nonetheless. Even my intelligence seemed to be an advantage for a change. I didn’t have to worry about out-arguing anyone; if I did, I’d just get spanked for it. Which was of course a bonus. There’s nothing particularly surprising about all that for most people, but it was awfully new to me.
Still, that history of feeling undesirable doesn’t go away so easily. If I’m honest with myself, I have to admit that my defense mechanism has been to avoid situations in which that is an issue. As much as moving into the spanking world has helped with that, it may also have become just another form of delaying putting myself out there. To be sure, it’s a form of escape that involves endorphins, arousal, and the touch of other humans, which is a marked improvement on my pre-spanking days. But I’m not sure it’s made taking that next step any easier.
Not So Submissive 
In my opinion – even being in a relationship with a spanko top – being in the spanking scene and not being a new, young thing is an exercise in self-doubt. There is so much vocal and bodily appreciation for the sweet, young, slender things in short skirts that many women over 30 do not get the time and attention they deserve or desire. I have known a few who’ve gotten dumped by play partners, etc.
When this is coupled with a lack of experience with relationships in general, I think it is very easy for the spanking community to not be a group of people who re-affirm desirability, but it might actually be the last nail in the coffin, so to speak. Putting oneself out there by making a special effort at your appearance and then actually showing up for a date or event is a big risk. If no one bites, it is pretty damn disappointing. Instead of having one’s desirability affirmed and being uplifted … the entire experience is damning.
So, while I sympathize with the middle-aged inexperienced man whose relationship skills are stuck in the era of drive-in movies and high school football games, I think women have a much more difficult road – particularly women who did not jump out into sexually active relationships at an early age, or waited until they were grown-up, only to find out that (for them) it was too late.
(I found the Internet as a college freshmen in a Unix shell, and alt.sex.spanking almost immediately, but it is still a tough road to escape from being the permanent high school ugly duckling. And, anyway, all those perverts on the Internet were evil, don’t you know, so therefore so was I…)
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I actually think I would have felt a lot more self-doubt at 30 than I do now. I really do think women begin to value their own needs and to understand their own strengths in a different way in our late 30s or early 40s. For me, that came from an awareness that I’d been playing the good female role in ways I didn’t think I had, and that it had cost me, both personally and professionally. So it’s much easier for me to ignore the swarming around the sweet young things in the spanking scene than it might otherwise have been. In fact, I found it kept me from getting unwanted attention from men who just wanted me to help them live out their fantasies with no concern for my experience. I don’t want to spend time with them, so I don’t care what they think.
One of the reasons I liked Paul’s post is that it gave me a bit of sympathy for some of the guys whose behavior would normally bother me. Not the completely insensitive guys, but those, who, like me, wrestle not entirely successfully with their relationship insecurities.
As for women over 30 not getting the attention we need or deserve, I suspect that’s largely a reflection of the Eligible Bachelor Paradox: there are simply more interesting and attractive single women than interesting and attractive single men.
Wow, I could’ve written this post, except for the career section. It matches my experience in a lot of areas so closely that I was nodding in agreement most of the time. I think just as many women had the same experience pre-internet as the men did. It wasn’t a gender issue, it was a lack of community issue. Those of us of a certain age couldn’t find that until later in life. Those who grew up with the internet have it much easier in that area.
As I said on Twitter, I suspect we’re in the same decade of life. So it’s not that surprising that our experiences would be similar, even if you did come out as kinky much earlier than I did. I definitely agree with you about the difference between having a community and not. There’s a big difference between reading about a dirty old man in a Heinlein book (my teen source of information about spanking and sex) and meeting real people who practice TTWD.
This is a truly remarkable post, Indy. I thought *I* did soul-searching and processing on Spanking Writers at times, but this is so very frank and honest – and touching.
Aside from your personal perspectives – and be in no doubt that you are an attractive woman – you raise some fascinating wider issues. It’s bizarre, isn’t it, that young / inexperienced women are seen by some as more attractive, yet men are valued for their age and experiences. It’s almost as if there must be some cross-over point – an ideal spanko age for both genders!
That said, I’ve noticed that at a couple of recent parties, I’ve ended up talking to the slightly less young folks there (of both genders) than the younger crowd. The maturity of the former is so much more appealing!
You also write about “the potential for older men to manipulate naive young women”. I concur – but think that needs a balancing perspective: by far the most manipulative people I’ve encountered in the scene have been “young women”!
Thanks, Abel, that’s very sweet.
One of the things I like most about the spanking scene is that I have friends of all ages, from 20 or so to 70+, all of whom bring something to our gatherings. I suspect that more than having a crossover point of desirability within the scene that there are bell-shaped curves for both men and women, but the male curve is shifted by a decade or two compared to the female curve. For me, the age curve for those I’m likely to see as desirable (which is different from just physically attractive) has also shifted as I’ve grown older. I think it’s also important to be clear that these are not absolutes– age is just one way in which two people have something in common. It’s also a highly imperfect readout of maturity, empathy and wisdom, all of which are much more important in friendships of all kinds than age compatibility.
With respect to manipulative younger women, your point is well taken. I started to say that the women to whom you refer are by no means naive, but I don’t think that’s strictly true. One of the points of this post is that people can be well developed in some areas, less so in others. So there are some highly capable young manipulators out there who are still quite naive in other ways.
I can definitely relate to many of the things you have said. Like you, I first started attending the parties because of their relative safety and higher concentration of eligible spanking gentleman, but like you, I think they might be stunting my growth in the relationship department. I don’t consider it time wasted though, not at all, and I don’t think I would ever want to give up the parties as I have found a home of sorts there. Instead, I think I need to take off the training wheels and enter the actual dating world armed with the knowledge and experience I have gained at the parties, both about myself and my spanking and even sexual desires. I have had the spanking itch scratched, so to speak, and can now look at a gentleman as more than just his right or left arm and hand, but rather as a whole person. It’s not ALL about spanking. Eventually, we have to sit across the dinner table from one another and I’d really like to find the person with whom I can enjoy that time as much as the time spent examining the carpets. Great post as always, Indy!
Hi Jada, and thanks for dropping by to comment!
I definitely agree that my time at parties has been far from a waste of time, and I can’t imagine not getting together regularly with the friends I’ve met there. Like you, for example! Over time, though, the spanking play at parties has become less important to me, the time spent with friends more important. And, as you suggest, just going to parties is no longer good enough.
One of the reasons this is such a good and useful piece is that it highlights what’s the same — small sample size caveat! — for men and women, and what’s different. I was conscious in what I wrote to avoid speaking for women, but I suspected at least some of the experiences would be the same. Why would they not be?
I think the key difference isn’t the need for affirmation (which is just human), but how — in general — men and women deal with that. I do see men as often launching into the scene with a mission to get bloody affirmation if it kills them, and it can have a bull-in-a-china-shop quality. That’s helped by the issue I brought up of how kinky men in middle-age have an advantage for that reason alone. Men also don’t have the same body-image issues that women do, I think, nor are they judged on body-type to anything like the same degree.
I said this to some extent in my piece (and in later comments), but it’s worth reiterating that it doesn’t feel to me that men necessarily have a harder time of it for lack of pre-Internet relationship experience. Rather than boo-hooing about their situation, what I wrote was intended to be a bit of a field-guide to men of an (un)certain age: this is what they’re like, and why. On the other hand, it’s pretty unequivocally harder for older women in the kink — whether they had pre-Internet relationship experience or not. The consequence is a scene in which the same life-circumstances can create men who are more likely to go out and seek affirmation, and women who are less likely to seek it.
@Paul: Thanks for inspiring this post. I always enjoy your comments and analysis, both because they are so thoughtful and because you have an uncanny way of making points that help me clarify my own thoughts on these issues. That might be in part because we’re different in so many ways: not only gender, but also scene orientation, where we fall on the introvert-extrovert scale, national origin, and tolerance to smilie faces on Twitter. So even though the sample size here is small, it still covers a broad range of traits that have nothing to do with gender.
I also appreciate your field guide to men of an uncertain age in the scene– that’s very much the way I read the second half of your post. It’s both sympathetic and a little provocative– a delightful combination in my opinion.
I think you’re right that older men in the scene are more likely to seek affirmation, older women, less likely. The irony for me is that I’ve found considerably more affirmation in the scene than I did before I came into it.
@Serenity: this brings me back to your comment– and it’s not the first time you’ve kept me thinking for several days about something you’ve written! I suspect my experience is very different from yours in this way. After all, I’m comparing vanilla youth and scene middle age, an apples and oranges comparison. In contrast, your analysis compares scene life before and after 30, to pick a reasonable dividing line. I never had the experience of being a sweet young thing in the scene and then aging out of it, as it were, so my fear of rejection is stronger out of the scene that in it. However, I have seen distressing examples of women for whom the scene became a source of self-doubt. It actually breaks my heart a little bit to see still-young women begin to question themselves in this way, so I hope I’m right about it getting easier a few years down the road.
I only really came out of a ‘virtual’ scene and into a more real scene (with anyone but Chris) after the princess was born … actually in my 30th year. My pre-30 experiences were mostly virtual, with a few limited exceptions (I met a few people earlier, including Chris, Paul & Mija). So, as far as the face-to-face scene goes, I don’t really have any ‘sweet young thing’ experience. Chris was actually shocked when he found out how young I was because I consciously avoided the sweet young thing stereotype when I was one and had the Unix interface between the world and I. So the year I met you, Indy, I was 30 and that was my first ‘party’…. and I was absolutely overwhelmed, shocked and horrified by some of the things I saw. It made me sit up and think about how socially inept I really was, too.
Anyway, I’m remembering multiple instances of women I know or women I’ve heard from/about after who were rejected, excluded or otherwise ‘left out’ at various parties because of their age, size or inability to come out of the shadows. I freely admit to hiding behind Chris (or the hotel room door) when I start feeling rejected / insecure and I can easily imagine a world in which I went to a party for the first time nearly desperate to see if I fit in somewhere, only to be disappointed. It is partly about expectations – and not expecting too much – but it really only takes a single comment from an insensitive man or woman to send someone who is vulnerable – at a spanking event or not – back to his/her shell.
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I had no idea that SL was your first party! I just saw you as one of the old pros who was so kind in making me feel at home. I’m very glad I’d gone to a couple other parties before I went to SL, and I’d recommend to others coming into the scene to try a smaller venue first. In smaller settings, there’s less of a tendency to forget that we’re dealing with people, not fantasy figures, than in a larger setting. I actually remember being a bit relieved that all the guys who just wanted someone with a beating heart to fulfill their fantasies spent their time going after the sweet young things and left me alone meet more genuine people.
Fabulous post, Indy, and very resonant for me also. I wonder how the internet generation will feel in 10-20 years’ time regarding how that shaped their relationship experiences and kink journeys? Part of me regrets my “lost years” before I understood myself well enough to explore my desires. But maybe being a little older and wiser before putting oneself “out there” brings its own rewards too, its own unique perspectives? None of us will ever know of course! The joy of blogs like this is finding people who at least get where you’re coming from, though, and where you want to go. Thank you for sharing this.
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