STEVE THOMAS: This is Circulating Ideas. I’m Steve Thomas. My guest today is Dr. David Lankes. He’s a professor at Syracuse University’s School of Information Studies. And he’s got a new book out, titled Expect More, and he’s here to talk about it.
David Lankes, welcome back to the show.
DAVID LANKES: It is fabulous to be back, thanks for having me.
So you’ve got a new book, Expect More, and this one is a little more, it’s obviously still library-related, but I think your goal for this one is a little more outside of appealing to librarians this time?
Right, I mean the The Atlas Of New Librarianship, my last book, was clearly written by, for, you know lots of inside baseball librarians, and specifically about librarianship. And one of the major goals was to see if we could define librarianship outside of the idea that someone who works in this place called a library. “Expect More” is a follow-up, but it, and it’s got some new ideas that I think librarians will appreciate, but it is very much geared towards boards, provosts, principals, people who oversee libraries, and I think the idea is that hopefully a librarian can sort of read it, and then take it and hand it off to the community that they’re working for.
And so are you seeing the basic audience for the book to be librarians, you think to read it first, and then do that kind of hand off, or?
That’s been, that’s been my sort of marketing strategy, as you know a branding way of saying I hope that is what will happen. And so I think to this point, that is what has happened, librarians pick it up, and they go this is interesting, and I want my board to read it, I want these folks to read it, so I actually, the feedback I have is that that’s what’s happening, and that’s good, I’m sure there’s lots of marketing data that I have no idea what’s really going on, but that’s the idea.
With the Atlas it was interesting because you were sort of presenting a new view of the profession, and how we can move forward in the profession, and this one is explaining that to a more lay audience.
Well yeah, I mean a lot of people have, in the Atlas it was really getting librarians prepared for changing worldviews, but as it says within there, it only happens if that view is shared with the community, and so, as librarians, I think all professions have this problem, which is we tend to talk to ourselves. And so making a mechanism that can sort of broaden that conversation and bring more community members into it, I think is a good thing.
That was, when I had initially started doing this podcast, that was one of my goals as well, was to get the word out about what librarians are doing to other people, and I realized a year in, year and a half into it, it’s just librarians listening I think, in general, so I have been trying to think of ways to get it outside too, cause I think that’s really important for the outside world, we can do all these great things, but if everybody still thinks, oh that’s where I just go get to get the new book, and that’s not helping.
Right, exactly, and we’re sort of a tough nut to crack, I mean part of, I think part of that comes from our service orientations as librarians, we want to help you, and we frankly want life to be easier for you, and in doing so we hide the complexity of what we do. And so I think that makes us a bit impenetrable. The other thing, actually I was talking to some of our library science students here, and what they said is when they were interested in becoming librarians and they were sort of looking out on the web for what that meant, what is librarianship and what could they expect, they didn’t find much in the way of easily digestible information. They found a lot of librarians talking to librarians, but not too many opening up that conversation. So this is my one attempt, but I know that you know, ALA Marketing as such, they’re trying. One of my personal beefs is the Read poster, because you know, here’s a really powerful, long lasting, well financed national library initiative that is about an activity that could occur anywhere, and with anyone, and is not very library-centric. And so, you know, this idea is how can we talk about libraries as get the community talking about libraries and what we want out of them.
And so one of the ways that you’re writing about this is that librarians should expect more, what’s one of the things that you think librarians should expect more from their profession, before we get into what other people should expect?
I think that librarians should expect more in the sense that, you know, when I find and talk to great librarians, there’s always a passion. And it’s always a passion about service. And I think the notion of what they should expect more of is libraries and librarianship to be a passionate profession. A profession that is about exploring, not only the members or patron’s passions, but librarians themselves. Why is it that they’re excited about this? What is it about service? Get them into the idea of innovation, I had a really interesting conversation with my class, I teach the Introduction to Library Science class here. And I put up this anonymous bulletin board online, so they could put anything there, scared or afraid, or don’t want to bring up in public. And one of them after a lecture on the importance of innovation and creativity, was a librarian who said, “I’d be a really good worker bee. I would be a fantastic worker bee. You tell me what you need, and I’m gonna make it happen. And it’s gonna be amazing and wonderful, but I don’t ever think I’m gonna be an innovator. I don’t think that’s my job, I don’t think it’s my skill, I don’t think I could do that. Can I still be a librarian?” And to me, that led to a very interesting discussion back with the class when I had that many librarians about can we expect to, can we expect creativity, imagination and innovation as part of the core skills of librarianship. And to a one, they all said yes. They said, first of all, think innovation, don’t think you know, that creativity and such, we can get there, but innovation, absolutely, because that “worker bee,” who takes on the tasks, and does it brilliantly, almost always does it because they find new and better ways of exceeding expectations for that task. That’s innovation. If you’re asked to check out a book, and you can figure out how to do it in fifteen seconds’ less time, that’s an innovation. And you’re never sure which of these innovations is gonna lead to a brand new way of doing it, but the idea of being a professional of understanding, not only understanding functions and processes, but making them better, that is the goal of an innovator. Right? The innovator is not, we always think of Steve Jobs and these God-like figures, but the truth is innovators are people who look at something like checking out books and figure out how to save fifteen seconds. They figure out how they can save money in their acquisition process, they figure out how they can add a little function here or there. I have a librarian right now who they have this little magazine rack out as an informal learning area. Well, after talking with her and she says you know, we need to be more participatory, she took off the magazines and she put scrapbooking supplies on that table, and now people are coming in to work and build their own stuff. That’s an amazing innovation. Is it going, is it on iPhone 5-level changing the universe? No, but you never know what it could lead to. So I think for me, what the librarian should expect at a library is the ability to innovate, the ability to be creative, and that libraries should be a passionate workplace. It should be a place that allows people to truly explore what they care most about.
And as you said, incremental innovation is fine, so. [laughs]
Absolutely because you never know where it’s gonna lead, that scrapbooking might lead to someone who does scrapbooking and decides that this is really interesting and they find out this wonderful thing about their family, and they’re so in love with the library they hand them a hundred thousand dollar check. Who knows? You know it, it’s a matter of saying we’re gonna try the best we can, and you can never, never, never, never, never estimate the impact and innovation it’s gonna have, from the innovation itself. It’s unpredictable.
Right. And sometimes people don’t realize that things that seem this huge, game change thing, I mean they are, but like the iPhone for instance, you have, you have to go all the way back to the Mac to the Lisa, to the Newton, there’s plenty of things that they did wrong also that they learn from, and Apple’s not this all-knowing God, as the Mac thing currently going on proves, but.
Exactly, and that’s the fail, quickly fail often side, which is you never know what’s gonna stick, and so if you’re in an environment that lets you try that, it’s always a better environment.
And so we talked a little bit before about how we don’t want to get stuck with the Read poster, we don’t want to get stuck with the book thing, what else do you think people should expect from libraries, other than books?
So this is, the title of the book comes from this interesting moment where I was sitting at this sort of failing academic library. Failing, they just got rid of the dean, no morale, just not pleasant place to even go visit. And they brought in a new director who was doing great stuff, he brought in a couple of us as consultants, more or less to give him some advice, but frankly also to sort of shore him up and say look, I’m not the only one who thinks this. And as part of that they brought in a faculty senate that oversaw the library committee, and the faculty senate. And I said a good library, I was talking to them and said, a good library shapes itself to the needs of the community. What are the top priorities of this university? Is it greater undergraduate and recruitment, more research dollars, internationalization, what is it? And they said, “we need better access to back journal issues.” And I said, okay, I said so let’s try this again, I went like four or five times trying to figure out, what were the priorities of the university? Regardless of what, you know, in other words, if you want to become the biggest, baddest, best ever research university, you want to take Harvard off the map. That’s the priority of the university. The library, in essence, should shape itself to it, right, increase scholarly journal subscriptions or whatever it turns into. But the idea is to start with the objective. And they had been trained, they had been culturally, years of serving on the committee, working with staff, growing up in an environment where they had been trained on what to expect from a library. And their bar was set so miserably low, that they couldn’t even begin to grasp that they could do more. I said, “well what happens if say a librarian shows up to every person seeking tenure the next year, and helps them do their tenure, their tenure citation analysis?” They looked at me with this sort of wide eyes and said, librarians can do that? I was like they can do whatever you need. And that’s when it became solid down to me that you know, it’s not the community, communities love libraries. It’s not that communities hate libraries, it’s not that communities actively seek to sabotage them, it’s that communities don’t even know what’s possible. And so what sometimes holds libraries and librarians back, because when you go to do a construction project in libraries, it’s always the students that are the least resistant to change. They want more stacks and more quiet reading room. And it isn’t until you show them something else that they go, “Really? They can do that?” So the idea of expect more librarians for communities, is the idea that we can be what we need to be, within the confines of our values and the confines of funding, let’s dream a little bit.
And, so that’s what I found really missing when I was working more and more with city councils, when I was working with provosts, they had a box that libraries fit in, and they weren’t about to revisit it until prompted.
I thought it was interesting, a lot of times, especially the way the media wants to whenever they write one of those, oh the library’s not what it used to be, not your grandfather’s library or anything like that. They want to do the oh, they’re going to go completely digital, but the interesting thing about the, oh what was the school, the Cushing Academy that you write about in the book, everybody who read that story, oh they’re getting rid of all their books, but that wasn’t even the story, they’re not getting rid of all their books, it was just they were…
Not a big non-fiction collection, digital versions of them. I mean, and that’s a great story because, I’m not the only, I’m not the only, there are much better commenters on this on the internet that say, if I read one more tattooed librarian story…
[laughs]
one more and it’s true, we’re in the, the press has absolutely, and this isn’t universal, but a lot of the articles you see, has actually no nuance about a library at all. You know, they don’t see the nuances from community to community, type to type, what they’re doing, what they’re not doing, and so when you look at, for example when Fayetteville Free Library up here, a little ways down the road in New York, started a baker’s space, they didn’t quite know what to do with it, they were like wait, what, huh? And in fact when they Boing Boing put up an article, and then when he saw a lot of the commenters writing, “that’s great, or why is that a library, or no they should just do books” and all these other types of responses, the community has really rich array of what they see in the library. The librarians have a rich array of visions for a library. And capturing nuance has never been a strong suit of quick media. And so, not to blame em, everyone has nuance. But this idea that they can be more and the real ones, that the community can shape it, that’s I think a little mind blowing for some people, to think that that’s my institution, and I’m allowed to help shape what it’s gonna be?
And that’s part of, that leads into another part I was gonna ask about, the other thing that we want to get our communities to understand is that they can come to the library to create now too, it’s not all just about consuming content.
Right, I mean, this is one of those things, so one of my great roles in life, if you will, is to talk about how we change the profession. But realize the reason we’re changing the profession is because the way professions progress and survive is because they change. Sort of this interesting circular logic. But the idea that we haven’t had libraries for three thousand years, cause they look exactly like they did three thousand years ago.
And so I think that a lot of people talk about new changes, and new whatever, they approach the community and they say, you’ve done it all wrong, here’s the new way. Or, this has never been thought of before, and it’s gonna transform everything. It’s this idea that somehow, to be a progressive librarian, technology, social practice, planning, you must discredit everything that came before, which is a three thousand plus year history. This is not my view. My view is that libraries are evolving. New librarianship will eventually be old librarianship, which will need a new new librarianship, and we constantly cycle through, re-aligning ourselves to the communities that we serve, at least we better. And so, I forgot the question. [laughs]
[laughs] Just talking about libraries helping people create content instead of just consuming it.
So, that was a long preamble to this, which is that libraries are a place to create, you know, in the Middle Ages and during The Enlightenment, the librarian was actually usually a history or literature professor, who was using the library as his laboratory. We always talked about authors, we love our authors when they get up and they tell about libraries, and what they’re really telling the story of, I helped, a library environment helped me write this book, either through research or a quiet place to study, or background, or even simply inspiration of bringing other writers, and so libraries have always been a place to create, and I think that what we found is, the image of a library being this crowded, up to the rafters, hoarding place with tons of books, is a 60, 70 year old concept? It really hits right around World War II where paper production and ink production, therefore printing production, became very cheap, and the number of titles and items produced just exponentially exploded, libraries had a philosophy, when information is scarce, we need to collect it all. Well this philosophy which at the time, made sense, smacked into this exponential growth in printing, and you ended up with a very dysfunctional, “we have to get it all, even though there’s much more than we could ever get, even though the quality is much more that we can ever deal with,” and we end up having a vision of a library as a building stuffed full of books. But that’s not, if you go back to the 20s, if you go back to the 1800s, that’s not what a library was. A library was a place that was more about reading rooms and materials than it was about just the collection. And so, every, I talked to Wayne Wiegand about the Atlas and he was very positive, he just made my day, but his one critique was just in the future if you could say, you know, add the phrase “again” to the end of something that would help, but he’s right. Libraries are a place of creation, and again, our emphasis is stronger on it now.
I thought it was interesting, what you wrote about the ancient library of Alexandria that it wasn’t just this big, oh this is where we store all of our scrolls, people would meet there to discuss ideas, and they would bring the ideas off the new ships that would come in, and quickly integrate them into the library.
Yeah, it was an economic development hub. What they did is they brought scholars from around the known world, gave them tax breaks and stipends, hooked them up into a campus, it wasn’t one building, and said, “go be smart.” And if they wrote it down, they kept what they wrote, but really they were advising the librarian of Alexandria who was one of the closest advisers to the rulers of the city, in how to develop, how to bring in new technologies, how to increase the economy of the area.
One of the original think tanks.
Absolutely.
Another thing that you write about in the book is sort of this grandiose idea that librarians and libraries can improve society. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Right, I would absolutely, I would love to talk about this. I have to say, when I put out the Atlas of, it carries over to this book, but I put out the Atlas and in there is a mission. A mission of librarians, to improve society through a facilitation of knowledge and ideas. I had to say that I kind of expected resistance around the idea of how I define knowledge. And I got it. Very fascinating conversation, Lane Wilkinson down in Chattanooga, brilliant guy, I’ve learned much more about epistemology and philosophy than I ever thought that I would want to know. But, the one I didn’t expect was some people taking me to task with the concept that librarians improve society. I sort of thought that was a no-brainer, but aside from the initial resistance I have of, what you don’t want to make society better? Realizing that actually we have a history in librarianship of improving society, that is always seen as very beneficial, you know. In Dewey’s day, we did not have fiction in the library because it was not worth as much. You know, we had the right books to read, and the right books were defined by you know, wealthy white male landowners. And so, the improved society part of that, the activism, act part of it, the idea of librarians as radical change agents, activists within their community, is not simply a matter of saying, librarians sit amongst themselves, determine the way the world should be, and go out and enforce it. But in fact that they work with the community to find out what the aspirations are at work, like how to make em happen, so it’s a, it’s still a very community-centered definition of what improved means. I was in, oh where was I? I was in the Netherlands, and I had a very interesting conversation about the mission of the librarian who said you know, “who are we to say what improve is?” I said, “well as a community, we have a voice in that too,” and went through a rather interesting discussion about sort of the ethics and morals of it, and she said, so what you’re saying is that librarians should reclaim the moral high ground? I said librarians should own the moral high ground. This is a profession, this is a high ground profession, this is a profession where I have never in my life been disappointed when I’ve gone big and grand.
It’s, you know, we need to dream bigger than, I really had a good summer reading program too, we really assisted literacy in this community. And so I think that, then I had a discussion with some folks in New Zealand who say are librarians active? And I said absolutely. I said you know, some people, somehow we got out of the phrase of double-fisted librarianship, it was one of those moments. And actually one of the feedbacks when I was talking to the Netherlands was you know, standard, really interesting stuff, but standard American you know, take over the world, aggressive stuff, and I took a moment, I said, you know what, I think librarianship needs to be more aggressive, I don’t know about America, but we need to be more proactive. I’m all for a more muscular view of librarianship, a much more aggressive view of librarianship, where we take our concepts of democracy, where we take our concepts of improving society, where we take our concepts around literacy and learning as being essential to functioning in today’s society, and we turn that into an active – activist – agenda, where we take that in the community, and the community gets a voice, this isn’t simply imposing it, but we are raising the issue. Because there are a lot of issues within our communities, whether those communities be academic, cities, schools, that aren’t raising, we’re ignoring and we don’t even pay attention, and librarians are paying attention to them, and rather than us trying to solve those in our rooms talking to each other, we need to take it to the streets, and talk to our communities and go out saying, do you realize what privacy stuff is going on in your life? Do you realize what this e-book long-term stuff is, it’s not really a financial discussion, it is for the publishers but not the librarians. Do you realize what’s happening with government transparency at the local level? You know, those are, that’s an agenda, and I think that it’s very legitimate for librarians to carry that forward in a proactive way.
Have you been a little more heartened with the discussions about e-books recently, with the ALA getting a little more aggressive that way?
I have been very heartened by the, I mean, for me, the disheartening part of the e-book, well let me break this down. In direct answer to your question, yes, I have been absolutely thrilled with the ALA, the Blogosphere is taking much more proactive, almost aggressive stance towards the publishing. I mean I’ve very happy that it’s no longer sitting back and going, let’s wait to see what happens, so on that, it’s a huge wonderful benefit. On the other hand, what I worry about, is that it’s an aggressive conversation that can easily turn into not having to change. In other words, if we could just get the same business models we have for our print books, then we’ll still be a book business and we’ll be fine. Several years ago, COSLA, Chief State Operating Officer of Librarians, state librarians, put a report out that really got me mad, these things happen, and e-books are essential to the future, we’re gonna wait and see who wins the e-book war and then we’ll be fine, you know, is it gonna be a Kindle format, is it gonna be this, and I was like, “two problems, one, why wait? Two, why do you think e-books are the future of libraries?” Why do you think publishers get to keep their place in the universe, when no one else does? When, you know, this book that we’re talking about is self-published. Self-published for lots of reasons, mostly as an experiment, but the idea is having done it, I go through here and go, that was really easy. And I’ve gone through publishers, and I have brilliant publishers, and I will no doubt in the future, publish again some books, and, but not all publishers are the same. MIT Press is a great publisher. ACRL is a great publisher, not just because they edit well, but because they really do look at it as an admission of style and communication. That’s not been the case with all publishers that I have published with. They, which look at it much more as an item shuffling business. You know, their business model is changing, libraries can’t chain themselves to a failing business model. We need to look beyond what other people sell us, and to what our communities can produce.
So that does lead me into something I wanted to ask you about, about the production of this book. Why did you decide to self-publish this time?
I did it for a couple reasons. The first and primary one is an experiment. We talk about self-publishing all the time, I certainly talk about self-publishing and creation libraries, creation spaces, and so I wanted to get a sense of what it took to produce a book. Now I have a background in Bachelor of Fine Arts, and so while people may not that or whatever, but all illustrations within the Atlas, I did. I loved the visual aspect of it and I said, I can do a cover, I can do the illustrations, I’ve got lots of students here to help me do good editing, so it was just a matter of one, seeing how it works, seeing if I could sell more than two, yay, the same teaching problem was being able to communicate that to my students, and so it was a learning experience. The second one was looking at it as a control issue, which is, you know, if I wanted to say, “hey, here’s a paragraph, here’s a chapter out of the Atlas, let’s re-publish it,” I’d have to get permission from my publishers and all that, and I wanted to be a little bit more agile, and frankly I also wanted to look at the business thing. I wanted to say you know, six percent, if I go through a traditional publisher, I get six to twelve percent on, of royalty. So for every copy, just in case your readers want to know. For every copy of the Atlas that we sell, I get about three bucks. Which is nice, thank you, continue to buy it, I’ll take your three bucks, and now I’m with a great publisher, and I hope to publish with them again in the near future, but I also want to say, you know, let’s see what else we could do here, let’s see if I can use this to generate some additional funds. And I’m not rich, in case you were wondering, but it has been interesting to learn that process.
What was the toughest thing you found about self-publishing a book that you learned from?
The hardest thing about self-publishing the book, and I’m not a great marketer, so my marketing is when I go out and give speaking engagements. So I can’t talk to… it’s sold well, right now it has sold about one tenth as many copies as the Atlas, and yet I’ve made about, I’ve now made more royalties in it, so, yeah. Hey, we’re all allowed to be greedy sometimes. But the hardest thing for me was the e-book world, because I went through a space called Create Space, Bluemoon.com or other options, but I went through this thing called Create Space, to produce the physical book, and that was actually pretty straight forward and easy, well within my skill set. The minute I started looking at how do I get the e-book version of it out, which was important to me, then it was, I had to go to a space called Smashwords which does it, but then I found advantages to also creating a special version on my own with Amazon, and Barnes and Noble, and Apple, trying to fit those formats in, and trying to create accounts and payback and all those kinds of things, so the e-book world is just as splintered on the back end, as it is on the front end.
How many different formats did you end up doing on the e-book, I know you did an e-pub and an Amazon, what else did you do?
Well, I did an iPad version, right, so using iBooks, so the e-pub version which was created, you can put on your phone anywhere you want, but there’s an iPad only version. So there’s e-pub, there’s mobi, which is what Kindle will read, then there’s an iPad specific version, then there was an Amazon specific version, then there was a Barnes and Noble specific version. I think those are, so I think I got four-ish.
Hopefully someday we can come to a little more agreement on e-books and not have to have people creating so many versions just to read on different devices.
And you know, it’s interesting, I never had to do tech support on a book before, but I had someone who said I bought the version, and I can’t resize the text, and the answer is if you buy it for the iPad, you can’t resize the text. It’s Apple’s version of, you know, make it for an iPad, make it look beautiful, and don’t let anyone touch it. And so I sent her this sort of e-pub version, I said “Here, try this,” and it let her into it, but it’s been, it has been interesting on some of the things that pop up.
Did you find using the tools to make those e-books pretty easy to use generally, like iBooks Author and stuff like that?
By and large. I mean the, I did the iPad only version because I wanted to try their iBooks Author tool, that’s the great thing about having, having the book completely in your control and possessions, I can say hey, let me try this, with the full text of the book and publish it. Most of the other ones just take a good old boring word file, and convert them with some minor changes. So, it wasn’t horrible, it was just a matter of going through and reading everyone’s publishing guidelines, things like that.
We obviously want people to read the book, but can you give some idea of like, you wrap up the book basically with an action plan of how to not just do the, rah rah rah here’s the great libraries, but you gave some good concrete examples of how people can get these ideas a little more implemented in their heads. Can you give me some ideas about that?
The first thing that I’ve said out loud, which I have not gotten any pushback from, is the idea that there are great, good and bad libraries. You know, that we have to admit that frankly there are libraries out there that are not good. And we have to deal with that, right, so really there are action plans for a great library, which is more or less ordered like hell, how do I get involved. You can’t just assume it’s a great library, because you as a citizen, you as the board, just let librarians run. A great library is one where you work directly with the community, and so the community has to be involved. The real action plan is around bad libraries, where it talks about things like, you’ve gotta learn more about libraries than just what it is you see when you walk in the door of your library. You’ve gotta rebuild a playful community where you try out new things, where we really build that culture of failing quick, failing often, because then you will succeed, well, benchmarking, trusting and expertise, visit other libraries, I can’t tell you how many times it boggles my mind that people will say “we have a bad library,” and I’m like, “well give me a good library,” and they’re like “I can’t.” Create forums, map into conversation actually comes out of the Atlas, which is figuring out exactly what your community is, either struggling with or aspiring to, and aligning yourself based on that. And just on that one, I had a really interesting moment of I said, once again I teach an introductory course, I sent them out, I sent six groups out, three outside the library, three inside of our libraries, and I sent them with three questions. So one group got the question, how did the library help you? The other got the question, what do you want to do with your degree, how can you maximize your degree? And then the last one was, what are you working on right now? What are your problems? And the answers came back and they were exactly, I mean I couldn’t have orchestrated it better. The one about libraries was all about quieter spaces, better printing, cheaper printing, bigger books on this one, better coffee. Right it was all very actionable, but frankly really little. The one on what can you do with your degree, was too situated, cause their answer was, get a job. It was sort of build me in. But the one about what’s your problems, led to very interesting and rich results. Too much stress, time management, roommate issues, all these sort of really wonderful, meaty issues, and then we sort of as a class we put through and said well, could the library do anything about this, not that they have to, but could they? And I think that one of the things that people in bad libraries, but frankly, libraries of all sorts need to spend time on is talking to their community, and saying what is the community worried about, working on, aspiring to, not simply how does the library suit you?
It’s a bad question, it’s not all about us, and they don’t care. And then the good thing, the real tricky one is the good libraries. The great libraries get you excited and passionate, the bad libraries get you depressed, and the good libraries are kind of like this, meh, it’s like, yeah they’re good they got collections, they got good reference services, they do stuff with my kids, but frankly, you know, I could go there, or I could go somewhere else, and for them it really is find that passion. What is the passion of the librarians, but also the community and how can those two work together?
And David, how can people find out more about you and your book online?
They can go to Davidlankes.org, they’ll find out about me and there are links to the book. The book itself is Riland.org will get you to the website which gives more information about it, and I love feedback and discussion. Cause that’s the whole idea, I throw these things out there, hoping that conversations ensue and I learn a lot more, it’s a very selfish thing.
All right well David, thanks again for coming on the show again to talk about your book, and I hope everyone goes out and buys it, because it’s a very good book.
Thank you very much.
Circulating Ideas 